You People And Your Quaint Little Categories (joanne_c) wrote in fandoms_bitches,
You People And Your Quaint Little Categories
joanne_c
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This is really weird...

Okay...this is weird

Discussion on tolkien_slash about why incest warnings are used on Merry/Pippin stories (something I've been wondering about myself, actually) and some interesting reasons for it have come up. I don't think I would personally use one if I ever wrote that pairing, but I've never considered cousins to be incest anyway - it is an eye of the beholder thing and IMO, if you can get married (in the legal sense), it's not incest and there are many places cousins can marry. And frankly if people know they're cousins, they'll read the stories knowing that.

But a couple of things disturb me.

1. The opinions coming through are enough that I'm concerned that it's going to become a standard to label *all* M/P stories as incest, even if the author doesn't feel it is, and I am morally and ethically opposed to warnings the author doesn't find necessary.

2. In one post, someone mentioned that there have been incest warnings in Harry Potter fandom for Harry/Sirius Black stories. This *deeply* disturbs me on so many levels it's not even funny. First and foremost - Harry and Sirius are not blood-related in any way, shape or form. I just don't *get* labelling stories with that pairing as incest. It isn't, and it *could* give people the wrong idea about the label of incest - hell, it could in the worst case scenario give people the wrong idea about incest itself. If Harry/Sirius is labelled incest, so should Harry/Snape, Harry/Lupin, Harry/Lucius Malfoy - any generation-gap pairing. Because *that's* the possible squick - not incest.

I could be opening a can of worms here. I write incest fic, I run the incestfic list - but I would never, ever label a story with a label that was so *wrong* as these people seem to be doing. The stories I label incest are brother/brother and sister/sister (so far).
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In one post, someone mentioned that there have been incest warnings in Harry Potter fandom for Harry/Sirius Black stories. This *deeply* disturbs me on so many levels it's not even funny. First and foremost - Harry and Sirius are not blood-related in any way, shape or form.

Yes!! This bugs me to no end. I am perfectly willing to grant that there are relationship I would consider incestuous even if there was no blood relationship--most notably, if people were related through adoption--but H/S doesn't fall into this category. To some degree Harry sees Sirius as a father figure, but given he didn't meet the man until he was 13 and he doesn't live with him, I can't see how that counts as incest.
It annoys me greatly.

To be honest, I'd understand it more if it were Harry/Dumbledore, as that is a relationship that seems incestuous to me (though I'd still read it because I'm like that ;))
Well, there is also parent/child incest...and cousins shouldn't be an eye of the beholder thing. Cousins are blood related, therefore it's incest. It's not as obvious as siblings or parent/child, but it's there.
Yes, of course, there's parent/child, uncle/nephew, etc. I'm more thinking of this from a fictional perspective, since my reaction to RL incest is basically "ew". I just don't see cousins in fic as being as, well, squicky as parent/child or brother/sister, or closer blood relationships.

The last paragraph was related to the second one, the wrongness I see is in labelling something that very clearly is not incest as incest (Harry/Sirius).

Heck, if Harry/Sirius is incest, so is Peter/Norman in Spiderman. They're actually pretty similar relationships.
Um...but Peter/Norman aren't blood related. So Harry and Sirius aren't either? o.O; That's an odd thing to do.
No, Harry and Sirius aren't blood-related. Sirius is Harry's godfather, but he's the friend of the parents kind, not the relative kind.

I get why cousins are labelled even though I don't see it that way for myself in fiction, but the Harry/Sirius situation disturbs me.

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I actually read that the possibilities of inbred kids are only 2-4% higher in first cousins - and I would bet that given certain genetic combinations/diseases that sometimes an unrelated couple would have higher risks for certain things. That's not really relevant, but I think it's interesting that it's so low a risk, and I know any risk at all can be too much, but still.

*giggle* I don't think hobbits have male pregnancy tendencies.

I expect you're right about second cousins, because of that famous example. Actually, the age thing is interesting, because that's really the problem in the second pairing, for some people. And wasn't she like fourteen?

Warnings are annoying. I do RPFic and "big squick" warnings (death, incest, rape so far, not sure if songfic counts or not as a big squick), and of course spoiler warnings for the show, etc. Anything else bothers me. I mean, if you have a Harry Potter story that's Harry/Sirius, people should be prepared for the age difference!

Yes, like Cleopatra marrying her brother - twice, I think. And that was before Julius Caesar and Mark Antony, too!

Oh, there are fandoms that if (generic) you don't know it could come up, IMO you've got no business reading the fic because you don't know the canon well enough. I would absolutely agree on Weasley warnings, and Bush ones. Though in historical times people married their cousins even more (Gone With The Wind, for example - would an Ashley/Melanie fic need incest labelling?)

And yes, warnings should be up to the writer and perhaps the list management (I've got certain issues there, too, but if I want to post on a list and/or archive somewhere I'll accept them even if I don't like them).